"Are You Alright?" The Dangers of Cancel Culture

0:01 Thank you all for joining us today. We're bringing you an episode unlike any other we've recorded so far. Our motivation to do an episode entirely on mental health comes entirely from what we have witnessed on social media over the past year. If you are new to this fandom or have been fortunate to have been able to avoid Twitter, you might not be aware of a situation that occurred in February 2024 that knocked Lovejoy's upward climb off the tracks. While we feel it is not our place to get involved in specifics, we are hyper aware of the elephant in the room. In late February 2024, an ex-girlfriend of Will's spoke out in a YouTube video with intimate and painful details about their relationship.

0:53 While Will's name is not specifically mentioned, about a week later he made a written statement expressing his view of what transpired, his apologies for the person he was during that time, and a desire to continue to improve as a person. Unfortunately, the outcome of all of this was a deep divide between those wishing to stand behind Will and Lovejoy and those who took an opposing and at times vitriolic stance against those who remained and against Will and the band themselves. Mental health was at an all time low and LED to Lovejoy cancelling upcoming performances, including Coachella, and delaying the release of a single. As Lovejoy's audience is primarily made-up of young adults and teens, they were the most affected by the backlash of former fans and were subjected to bullying, doxing, and constant harassment.

1:50 It has been a tough year and thankfully things are looking up, but there are still so many love enjoyers coping with this and are even afraid to admit they are fans openly today. With professional guidance, we can help these young people learn how to react, respond, recover, and develop healthy ways to use social media while being true to themselves. Love enjoyers. Please join us in welcoming Ali Raidenberg to the show. Ali has a master's degree from the University of San Diego and has dedicated her career to advocating for young people. She's written a book titled Out of Focus, which talks about Gen. Z's mental health crisis and has a real passion for societal changes that improve mental health in Gen. Z as a whole.

2:45 Ali, thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with us today. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. In researching all of this, we've we're hoping to do a a series of episodes on mental health. And while we have you on today, we would like to address the cancel culture as that seems to be a prevalent issue in the fandom. I think Angie, you had something about that. Yes, cancel culture, as I'm sure everyone was aware, seems to be a real popular catch phrase as of recently, and I know we've all heard it before, really know what it means. What is the real definition of cancel culture? Yeah, so cancel culture really is about this social practice that basically publicly calls out, boycotts or ostracizes a person.

3:43 And it's usually online and it's, it's this act of basically acting like someone is suddenly no longer able to be a active part of society, that they're no longer relevant, that they're not important, or that they're just basically just exiled. And it's extremely, extremely concerning, especially now more than ever because, well, the idea of it could be good to call out big organizations such as our government and things like that, where there are practices that need to be called out. When it goes to individuals and it's being used to basically exile people from a sense of belonging in society, it becomes just incredibly dangerous to people, especially for their mental health. And what I've noticed in the fandom, it's not only is it bad for the person being ostracized or shunned, those that advocate or come across as advocating or supporting that person often then become either not necessarily cancelled, but bullied, harassed, ostracize themselves. So it's like a a ripple effect.

5:04 I often liken it to to, you know, those old movies where you have the villagers with pitchforks flaming. That's what it feels like. It feels like you have a virtual group of people with flaming pitchforks that are coming after, you know, one person or another for whatever reason. And Ali, I can't imagine the toll that that must take on a young mind of being bullied like that. Yeah, I mean, the harm is just incredible. I mean, I think about just how it happens in social relationships, even friendships outside of being online.

5:46 I I personally experienced this. I was dating someone a couple years ago who my friends didn't like because of his, the way he dressed. And they decided they didn't want to be my friend anymore because they didn't like the person I was dating. And I was literally cancelled by a group of friends I had known for years because they didn't like my partner. Now looking back, I just think about how harmful that was because not only did they see nuance, they didn't really see me. And they chose to basically follow a really weird, you know, social guideline that was just wacky.

6:31 And it ended up harming me because that was a friend group I really relied on socially and to lose them was really painful for me. That's. Awful because it feels not only they're anti that person, but they should if they love and respect you realize you see something in this person that has value and be there for you for that, you know, so that's that's terrible. I'm sorry you went through that. Yeah, yeah, well, it's incredibly common that the act of cancelling each other is incredibly common, and it's becoming a normal part of society to basically cancel people when they no longer serve you. There's this culture right now where it's all over online. You hear people talking about how if that person doesn't make you happy, if they don't bring you joy, just cut them out of your life, goodbye, we're done.

7:31 We're done with them. Or, you know, you have a friend who you've seen them for a few times and they've just been really negative and they're just not what you're used to and suddenly bye, done. And that's a really prevailing culture right now. And I'm honestly not even sure where it started. I think it's just there's there's a mental health crisis at large and people are trying to figure out how to navigate it. And I think this has come out of it is people think 1 little thing doesn't bring them joy. They need to just cut it out of their lives because we're all very, very depressed and anxious as it is, especially as a generation.

8:11 And so I think it's come out of that, but it's one of the negative things that's happened. And it's one of these really misguided and just very, very negative, awful things that has come out of Gen. Z culture. And I think it's a bit in millennial culture too. But I think it's one of those things where we just decide, OK, I'm done with that person because I didn't like this one thing. And that's where it gets really harmful, because then it shames and isolates people and it doesn't give people a chance and it doesn't account for nuance. Right. And yeah, the just that people are disposable, and I've seen you use that word too.

8:54 Absolutely, there's it's just disposable culture and acting like people can just be disposed of. And I mean, it's so common now, even with dating apps. It's become so easy to meet people and talk to people, and people are so accessible. But the problem with that is that we're not having genuine friendships and relationships in our real lives because we're so busy online and we're so busy with this disposable culture. And so we're not forming meaningful connections and relationships because of that. I think it's interesting when you say disposable culture because there are so many other things I feel like in life right now that people consider disposable. I mean, quite literally think about all of the waste that we create, you know, most of us every day.

9:41 And what you said about being online I think is a great point because if you're spending all of your time scrolling on your phone, then you don't have time to really pay attention to someone or cultivate a relationship. And so you just, rather than try and work on a friendship or relationship, you just, you just cut the cord right away. Yeah, and the problem with it is that it creates a society in which everyone feels a crap ton of shame every time something comes out and they don't know what to say. And then it creates silence. And then there's a bunch of people who might feel one way about something and then not speak up because they're too afraid of what the outcome might be. And that's dangerous in itself because even climate change, I was reading a study earlier about climate change, about how 90% of people want to have policies put in place to protect our environment.

10:44 But there's this idea between everyone who doesn't want to speak up about it that, oh, no one cares about it. But the truth is, is that when they actually collected the data, they looked at like 6000 people. And they found that across the board, society as a whole wants to see change in the environment. But because no one's speaking up about it, and because people are too afraid to speak up about it, nothing is happening and nothing is changing. And we see this in our friendships and our relationships. And even with Lovejoy, a lot of people aren't speaking up about what they think because they're too afraid of the the hate and the rage that's going to come down on them. And it's just a dangerous culture.

11:25 And especially for all the people involved in that, his friends and family, people that have cut him off too. I'm sure they have opinions, but because of the way society rains down on people, no one is speaking up. It's so true. I mean, you could be a number one streamer or singer or whatever one day and the next it could be all gone and you could be, you know, put you up on a pedestal one day and tear you down just as fast the next day. And that's scary. And that's and they're real people on the other side of that screen. And that's what I think it's forgotten as well, like you said. But when you mentioned the dating app, Oh my gosh, like that got such a visual of the whole swipe left, swipe right, like that could be your soulmate. You just swiped by but because you know, you don't like their glasses or there maybe looked a little heavier than you'd look for normally.

12:16 Like that's sad that every that it's just swiping that scrolling on the TikTok, just swiping by people swiping by like not making real time for anyone. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the biggest issues with all these different things that are sprung up on us, whether it's about politics, whether it's in our friendships, we're not being taught about nuance and we're not given the time or space to really process things. And the problem with that is that a lot of teens are expected to have these answers to really complex problems that, I mean, most philosophers with PhDs are arguing about and have no answers to.

13:01 So to expect a 14 year old to know or have an opinion on such a complex issue and then expect them to side with one group or another group, it's just it's mob mentality. It's dangerous, it's polarizing. And we need to start teaching people about nuance and the idea that it's OK to not have an answer or an opinion about everything and instead see that there can be nuanced, there can be both good and bad in a situation. You can both love one thing someone does and hate another thing another thing that they do and understand that every person on this earth has both good and bad qualities. We're all nuanced human beings, and so we have to start treating each other that way.

13:48 And another thing to just add in there is that there's been these declining levels of trust in our society over the last. For sure you. Know, you know, half a century since the 1950s, there's been levels of declining trust. And even if you look at that, my parents generation between mine, people have a lot more trust for each other. And the reason why that's so harmful is because then it creates in groups and out groups and people not willing to engage with other groups that they're not familiar with. And so that furthers this loneliness epidemic and this epidemic of children who don't feel like they have a safe space. And I think too many they've they found a space on Twitter, which is like, I don't know about you. Would you say it's the most toxic of all social media platforms?

14:44 It seems to be for us. But they found that to be a safe space or they made friends. And like it's true. I've seen there are real friendships on there. But then when the what do you call that? The rug gets pulled out from the chair, gets pulled out from under you. When this whole fandom it became, it's just sort of like everybody scattered and then they couldn't find their way and didn't didn't know who to talk to. And who are you on my side or that side or the other side? You know, it's just that safe space that lived online vanished for them overnight. That's a really good point. Yeah, I've noticed too that and Ally, you brought up, like you brought up a really good point about about people forcing teens to pick a side.

15:35 Either you're on one side or the other. And I've seen a lot of examples where kids have just been in certain situations, have been flat out like, well, I don't know which side I'm on. I don't understand this, You know, I'm, I'm just a teenager. There's a lot that I don't know about this. And it seems like there's always the same group of peers, meaning like the teenagers peers that are really kind of harassing these other kids and pushing them to be on one side or the other. What do you think contributes to the actions of these kids who are really seeking to force these kids to be on one side or the other and just really force them to make a decision?

16:34 What? What is the root of of some of that behavior? What do you think? I mean, I can't give you a definitive answer about that because I feel like it's, it's pretty complex. But what I will say is that our society loves binaries. They love to group people into boy or girl, a man or woman. They they'd love to have this. You're Democrat, you're Republican. There is not a lot of nuance in our society. And it's a problem because if you look at most things, there's a spectrum. And I think that when we try to force people into groups, it's really, really it's harmful and it's just very common.

17:21 And I think when someone goes out of their way to try to force someone to choose a side, maybe it's because of their own discomfort with the idea of the other side. And they want to know, is this person in my in Group or not? And I think for a lot of people, we have this group mentality and even within our political parties, we have these ideas of are you perfectly a part of this party or are you not? And then we exile people who aren't perfectly a part of the agenda. And across the board, this is a problem with every different subject you can look at. But when it comes to even music and exiling someone because of a band, I think it just goes to show people are really, really afraid of nuance. I feel like at least from what we've seen, or maybe it's just who happens to go on Twitter, a lot of these kids don't have parental support and they escape to places like Twitter A. Lot of kids, like you're saying, do not have parental support. Absolutely.

18:28 It is a huge, terrifying problem. Yeah, it's our generation grew up with the most divorces of any generation. And so a lot of us grew up in broken homes, unfortunately. And at the same time, a lot of us also grew up with helicopter parents and parents that over parented like crazy, wanted to know every little thing we were doing, every club, every meeting, every extracurricular. But beyond that, there is also, I write about this in my book Emotional Neglect. And I think it came from this. I don't know if it came from fear or what it was, but a lot of parents emotionally neglected us.

19:12 And what I mean by that is that a lot of times we were invalidated for what we felt. And I can even speak to my my own experience. I have one of the best moms in the world, but growing up, she didn't really understand what was happening to me online. I would do all kinds of crazy stuff online because it was just coming out and I was discovering it as it was coming out. And so I didn't know the harm of it. And I was a curious young, young child. But I mean, I was going on like Yahoo Answers or Omegle or Club Penguin. And in all of those spaces, there were all kinds of things that I was encountering, including bullying.

19:55 And I would bring it to my mom and say, you know, this person was really mean to me online. I'm so upset. And my mom would go, oh, that didn't happen. I don't believe you. And that's, I believe, very common, at least for people and the older part of Gen. Z and the younger millennials, because they had no clue. They had no clue what we were experiencing or what was going on. And I think because of that, a lot of us experienced a lot of harmful, traumatic things online and we had no one to talk to or go to for these issues. Yeah, it was the Wild West, especially then, you know, it was just free, wide open. You don't know who you're talking to. But like, like you said, what they encounter even, you know, that's why I think Twitter with like, I don't know, Ange, I was floored.

20:52 Twitter was not a place I used. I use Facebook, you know, like other people might. Stage fame. And Instagram, but when Twitter was the place for this fandom and I like I don't know why, I just like glommed onto it and was just. Like I have to do something taught myself Twitter. It's, it's really scary. And I the only reason I ever went on Twitter is because I realized if I wanted Lovejoy information, like the details, the up to date stuff, that's where I had to go. And it was definitely an eye opener. I was like, this is crazy. And you're right. Some of the things these, oh, these kids that they that they post about, yeah. It's so sad.

21:38 Needless to say, after things went sideways, I hate that expression, but I'm using it with this fandom and with this band for a while. They ditched Twitter, they're out of here. So I'm glad they left the toxicity of Twitter. But now these kids are still here and I keep asking them, please, please come to Instagram, at least come on, come with me. But no, no, that's where they're staying. In 2007, that's when we started seeing increases of suicide rates. And that was also a time when the Kardashians launched and when we started experiencing the housing crisis. And so when you think about, I mean, Facebook was created as a hot or not scheme.

22:28 And then, of course, Zuckerberg figured out he can make a lot of money off of this whole social media thing. But it started as a entrepreneur seeing a need and something he can make money off of. But the need was already there. People weren't connected. And he saw a way for people to figure out who's hot or not. And he knew that there was a need out there for people to see who was hot or not, which is so silly. But it became and exploded into one of the big biggest social media apps in the world. The thing is, is that social media itself, Myspace, Instagram, Snapchat, all of those things came out of a need which is loneliness. And I don't know if you guys have heard of Mother Teresa. In 1950, she gave a speech about how loneliness was one of the greatest problems in society.

23:26 That was 1950. And and so that just goes to show that this has been an issue for a long time. People have struggling with loneliness, disconnection, isolation for a very long time. But now social media has made money because it filled an unmet need. But the problem is, is it's a mirror in the sense that it's basically portraying all the worst parts of culture because that's what makes money. That's what gets people's attention. Yeah, I see At your point about that, it's, it's just a, it's a mechanism. It's not. It's not necessarily the the 'cause. If social media was all just cooking videos, learning science, learning how to sew, learning different things about the universe and education, there would be no problem right now.

24:20 I really believe that. So I I really think that social media itself, it was not the spark, but it is the fire. Yeah, because what do you think about like everyone has a a voice now every mean. See, I don't want to just label people as mean people, but you know what I mean? Like they're if you have a different opinion, you get trounced on. So normally you wouldn't encounter 10 people when you walk outside your door, like all yelling at you. So it's a, right? I feel like social media too, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like we have a real problem in the society right now with the dehumanization. Like we don't think of people as actual humans and I don't know if it's because you see so many people on a screen. Are you able to speak to that at all? Do you think that we have a problem right now with not seeing each other as actual breathing, living human beings, and do you think social media is playing a role in that? I think dehumanization started the minute we started industrializing and becoming a capitalistic society, to be quite frank with you.

25:37 I think especially the minute we started exploiting people for money and creating monopolies and billionaires and and people who are basically power hungry and not actually helping the people. I think we've lost humanity a long time ago. I think now it's just everyone's starting to see it. It's a really good point. Or just that the whole idea of people can get better, you know, in, in relation to this ban when the things that have come up and talk of improving yourself or, and this doesn't just pertain to the band, but in general, when people say they're seeking therapy or seeking to be a better person, they should be given the opportunity to prove themselves.

26:29 People don't seem to want to give that a chance. Yeah, yeah, exactly what you're saying is so true. I believe that there is this because cancel culture, basically, it's this idea of taking away all humanity, all empathy for that person. It's just instilling a culture of fear instead of actually catalyzing nuance and dialogue and the idea that people can change and that people can learn and grow. And so because people are cancelled, it really just makes the issue worse when you think about it, because if we give people the time and space to apologize, to do right, to amend whatever it was that they were perceived to be cancelled for, it holds space for people to actually grow and do better. But when we cancel them, they're going to go and they're going to hide and they're not going to change. They're going to think society sucks and they're going to cancel society too.

27:31 It's like a two way St. And then it's. You can't help but think that it feels like those that are cruel online are just cruel 24/7. But the fact of the matter is, you take away that megaphone, shut off that computer or the phone, they could just be as sensitive and weak or problematic themselves, or most likely are because we're all human. And do you think it'll Do you see a way out? Do you think things will get better or how can they? I know you can't answer the world's problem. It's like saying what's the meaning of life? But what do you see is what has to happen for things to improve? Or are the next generations of kids just going to have it worse?

28:14 And I can't even imagine what worse would. Be I can definitely give some advice about how we cannot engage in cancel culture and what we can do instead for sure. That would be great. I think what people need to do is they need to just pause and take a breath before they post anything or even have an opinion. I think that the best thing to do is not to react and instead reflect so you can ask yourself questions like do I have the full story? Is this post about accountability or is it just you know, someone trying to be right? You can ask yourself, would would I say this comment to someone that someone's face?

28:56 Would I say this to someone's face? And then that pause can turn into, you know, an actual what do I actually feel about this instead of I need to be right or wrong or pick a side. The other thing is to swap call outs for call insurance. So instead of thinking, oh, this person's cancelled, you could say, I saw this and it made me uncomfortable. We need to talk about it and think about it. So you can call in and invite reflection and in that in turn can lead to better connection. And it's it, it helps because it helps people change by having an uncomfortable conversation instead of just cancelling them.

29:39 The the other thing is to name behavior and not the person. So instead of saying this person is horrible, they need to be exiled and forgotten forever. You can say that person's action was the thing that caused the harm, not that the person is the harmful person. And so that gives people this, this space to actually, you know, grow and, and do better. The, the other thing is that you can give people the time and space to apologize and let them try again. And instead of just saying bye, instead, you can let them actually take responsibility and repair the relationships.

30:19 The last thing I can say is that we need to basically, you know, we need to teach and practice what real accountability looks like. Because the idea that accountability is just exiling someone and treating them like they're disposable, that's not real accountability. It's not, it's just, it's exiling someone. And so true accountability includes naming the harm, listening to the people that are actually affected, taking the steps to repair, and then doing better moving forward. And so if we want a culture of accountability, we need to model what accountability actually looks like, instead of just punishing and exiling people because when they're exiled, they can't actually do the work to do better.

31:05 That's very true. I feel like they're. Always a lot of sense. They're always wanting more, but it's never going to be enough. I feel like they'll never be satisfied. If someone puts out a statement, they're they're going to nitpick every word and there's nothing that could have been said differently or better necessarily that would change their opinion. It's just a mob mentality, like we said before. And I really like the idea of taking a break, taking a moment. I remember I had a old, I had a former boss of mine had the scrolling on her screensaver. It was before you speak think and it's had like it was an acronym, you know, THINK.

31:52 Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it inspiring? Is it necessary? Is it kind? And I think if all these kids thought the word think and thought about those words before they wrote them, even in response to being harassed or bullied, even if it's not, they're not the ones, you know, doing that. Both sides, like you said, need to. I like the idea of a call in and let's come together and talk. I actually get like the warm and fuzzies on the occasions. I don't know if Angie knows what I'm talking about. On occasion when you see like a thoughtful conversation about, yes, the situation and everybody's sort of like, I appreciate what you're saying.

32:35 Oh, I can understand what you're where you're coming from. And yeah, that makes sense. You just just be good humans right at the end of the day. And I like the idea what you said about. Would you say it to the person's face? Could you? Would you? These are valuable tools. Going back to talking about the person that is being cancelled in particular, would you be able to speak a little more on the effects of being cancelled? Whether it's a public figure or, you know, a 14 year old kid on their computer screen, What what really happens to someone as, as they're effectively cancelled and go through this, this, you know, process of being basically wiped from society or labeled a monster.

33:28 Yes, yes, being labeled a monster. It's not good, I can tell you that. I mean, it's, it leads to a lot of psychological effects like shame and humiliation, anxiety and depression, isolation and loneliness. There's a psychologist named Naomi Torres Mackey, and she says that cancel culture leaves no room for nuance or grace, which are essentially the things that heal and provide accountability. And it cuts people off rather than calling them in, like I said. And so really the action of cancelling someone, that person who is cancelled, it can literally lead to people committing suicide.

34:09 It's really, really it's, it's the worst thing you can do to someone really. I mean, they put people in prison into isolation rooms, cutting them off from from everything as punishment that and it's the worst thing you can really do to someone and people who go through that, it can literally lead them to having mental illness. It's really, really horrible. And so for for young people who are seeing this and for the people experiencing it on both parties, it creates a culture of shame and silence. And it also it can lead to people feeling really, really depressed and impossibly suicidal if they're the ones on the receiving end. Yeah, I think grace is the keyword for all of it. We need to have more of that.

35:02 Yes, we do need more of that. A lot more of that. I know cancel culture, too, like you said, has also sort of forced a lot of kids, and let's face it, a lot of adults too, to remain quiet about things that they would normally speak up about. How can teens stand up for their interests or find the courage to talk about something that they like without getting pulled into a toxic argument? Yeah, I. Think that the best thing to do is to agree to disagree. Honestly, I think that's kind of the best thing you can do is say we're not going to see eye to eye on everything, but I'd love to agree to disagree on this.

35:45 I respect you, I love you. This might just be one thing we don't agree on. That's fair. Yeah, that's great. And I just had a looking back, looking at the questions, I got some from some of the listeners, one of the ones I don't know if you have any advice for this. How can a young person help their friend that is struggling from afar or like a an online friend that's really having a tough time. They feel a little helpless because they're not near them and how how can they be there to support them? I guess just listen or. Yeah, I work with kids. I've worked with kids for the last couple of years, and one kid was describing to me how they were feeling really depressed at one point.

36:36 And the way that they felt, which a lot of people with depression feel, is that no one cares. And so one of the best things you can do for someone in your life that maybe you want to help is know, make them know that you care about them, that they matter to you, that their life is important to you. And it can be as simple as messaging them and saying, hey, I just want you to know I care about you so much and you're a really important person in my life. Wow. I think that's huge. Just no. Just that touch. And it's so simple, it's. A lot it is, but it's like you just saying that was like, of course, yeah. And then like, you know, I think, I think kids, I say this with my daughter, like I don't know if it's COVID or what. Sometimes it's hard for them to express like emotional things like that.

37:35 But it doesn't have to get to like deeper heavy or sappy. It could just be as simple as like, I'm here. And yeah, I think that is meaningful. I've had kids reach out to me that have just sort of I always show it to my daughter because I'm always like blown away like that. They took the time to send me a message just saying thank you for being a positive space, like thank you for the time you take to do what you do and to be there. And for a kid to come out and say that like it, it means a lot to me. So I can only imagine, you know, like friend to friend online, like leaving the tweets and like going to the message and just saying something sort of a reaching out the hand moment.

38:20 Absolutely. Yeah, like late at night, if they have, you know, no one at home to talk to or and they see that they're online, like just that that personal connection, even if it's miles and miles away. I'll do that with with one of my friends, one of my best friends, even if even if there's nothing particular wrong. I mean, you know, we're busy. We don't always get to talk very often. So, you know, you don't even just sending a quick message like, hey, thinking about you, hope you're having a good day, stuff like that. I feel like it goes a really long way. And Ellie, I don't know again if if you'd be able to give any advice on this, but what would be?

39:00 And this is another question from our listeners. What's the best way to handle the emotional toll that the hatred fandom or online takes on you? Yeah, I think the first thing you need to do is just acknowledge what's happening. Just radically accept and acknowledge that what's happening really hurts and you can even kind of give an affirmation of like this is. Horrible this is really. Painful. I'm human, I'm human. And then I think I think it's so important, especially if you're feeling really a lot of issues with, you know, anxiety or depression, I think it's really, really important to maybe go out and see a therapist.

39:57 I don't think we should handle these feelings alone. I really don't, especially when they're so negative and toxic. I think especially find even a meditative a meditation practitioner going and seeing someone that can help you do deep breathing, grounding and and really just. Regulating your nervous system because experiencing that type and that level of hate is just so harmful for your body and your nervous system. It puts you in fight or flight mode. It's a lot to handle. And I mean, the other thing to say is that learning to not internalize it. And so usually a really good therapist can help you do that where it can help you realize, OK, whoever's raining this hate down on me, that's their own shit. That's their own stuff that's going on. That's not about me.

40:55 But often times it's not, it's, it's easier said than done. And so I that's where I recommend a therapist to help with that. Because that's what they're trying to do. They're trained to help you with that. And and then the last thing we'll say is give pain purpose and ask what is this teaching me about what I want to be and even what you know, Even when other people don't see me, What is this teaching me about myself and who I want to be? Right. It's like what not to do? You don't want to be the the person that makes someone feel like the person made you feel.

41:42 I know there will be some kids that will listen to this and they will say either I've asked my parents if I can go to therapy and they tell me, you know, no, I don't think you need it or I think it's silly or what not. Are there any resources out there for teenagers that might have parents that aren't necessarily supportive? Maybe just a place that they can reach out to and there's someone to talk to in the event that they're not able to actually go and see a therapist. Yeah, definitely. It's complicated. I talk a lot about the mental health care system, but I do want to provide some hope.

42:26 I don't want people to feel like it's a lost cause. I know there was a law passed recently. Actually, I'm not sure if it was nationally or just in California, I'd have to check on that. But I know that the law passed basically makes it so that anyone, any minor can go and access therapy if they have insurance. I'm completely free and anonymously and they're they don't need parental permission. So I would say the best thing to do is is talk to a doctor or someone at your school and I believe they should be able to access it without any parental permission.

43:08 OK, you write up a good point to school counselors. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there a lot of schools don't have a lot of counselors and they don't have enough counselors. And we need more. We desperately need more. There are I mean, there are different resources online like the it's it gets better project OK to talk the crisis emergency helpline. I mean even ChatGPT. I mean, if you want to get funny with it, I mean, literally AI has become such a great school. It's not perfect. It probably is not the most amazing thing ever, but it is free and it is accessible and it does have a whole lot of knowledge, so even something as simple as typing in your problems to ChatGPT and getting some solutions could be huge for a lot of people.

44:00 I know ChatGPT is popular in in the community too so. Yes, that's true. I know that some in my life, it was very helpful. Affirmations I heard you mentioned before can be so helpful. I know someone that had like a little sign by the bathroom mirror and in their car that said I am calm and I am strong. And if you sort of keep repeating those things to yourself or something similar, like, yeah, you had suggested I am human. I forgot what the other part was. But things like that, I really do feel like they helped because you sort of just it's almost meditative, right? You you distinct those thoughts in your mind. Repeat them.

44:45 And I think they're it does help. Affirmations can be really helpful. Meditation and breath work can be incredibly helpful. Journaling is a great tool. Exercise and nutrition are really really important. Proper sleep. Teens need more sleep than adults. They need like 9 hours. I actually, I won the science fair as a teenager about my research on school start times. And I think it contributed to later researchers actually developing the the research to get schools to start later in a lot of places. And so just getting enough sleep can be huge. Getting off your phone and going outside is absolutely huge. And then the other thing is that I, I like to say the opposite of depression is connection.

45:39 And I think that a lot of us are not connected with others in the way that we should. And most people don't know that developing a true close friendship can take on average 40 hours. So people might think, oh, why is that person not my friend? Well, that the question to ask is, did I spend 40 hours with that person? Did I put in the effort to see that person for 40 hours? Like it really does take time, it takes effort, but it's so worth it. And we need to start putting ourselves out there and having these meaningful conversations and then building these meaningful connections.

46:21 Yeah, in person, right, I mean, not just online. Yes, yes, in person. Yeah, the cooling generation left a lot of kids being online a lot of the time. And even still, like my daughter watches TV shows and movies with her friends in her room online, which I'm grateful for the fact that they could do that anytime they want, which is cool. But I encourage seeing each other in person as well. Yes, and. I feel like there's a lot of kids today that place importance on how many friends they have. And I've got this question, you know, or the comment every once in a while and my answer is always do you want 100 OK friends or a couple really close friends to me, like the answer is obvious. I would much rather have a small number of really close friends than a huge number of people that I called my friends but maybe aren't really exactly my friends. And I feel like kids place too much importance on the number of people that they know, almost like the number of followers, I guess on social media, right.

47:35 And I feel like they, I feel like there needs to be more importance like you had just talked about placed on the importance of a few really good close personal friendships. And I I don't think that's happening enough today. Absolutely. And you know, I think what you're saying that a lot of people place this unrealistic expectation on themselves that they need to have a million friends. I think that is such a problem. And The thing is, is that even a recent study came out that 73% of young adults feel really alone and disconnected.

48:19 And another study found that about half of Gen. Z feels like they have no close friends. And so for someone to be mad about the fact or, you know, depressed about the fact that they have no close friendships, they're, they're not alone with that. I mean, it's a lot, a lot of people who are feeling that way, which breeds an opportunity for young people to start building meaningful connections because they're all in the same boat. They're all going through it together. So this is such a good time for people to start saying, hey, I need to go out there and I need to start building my friendships and connections and I need to get my 40 hours in with these people. I like that it gives them a goal 40 hours. That's an interesting statistic.

49:06 I never heard that before, but that's. Yeah, man, I should be really good friends with my coworkers then all. Right. Meaningful hours. Meaningful hours. You gotcha. OK, good point. But I mean, you think about it, a lot of people who end up on sports teams, they end up becoming good friends and it's because they they have those hours. It's. Very true. That is true, yeah. You know, it's funny. My my daughter is in karate and she's there probably 5-6 nights a week and some of her very best friends are from karate and I I guess I just thought about it, it's because they they spend the time together there and apparently it must be quality time so. Yeah, that's that's wonderful.

49:52 Ali, I thank you, but I, I would like to give you the opportunity to, to tell us more about your your book and where people could find it. Yeah, my book is called Out of Focus. Why Gen. Z's mental health crisis is more complex than you can think, Than You think. And you can find it on out of focusbook.com. And you can also find me on social media at Ali Frydenberg, which is so hard to spell, but maybe you guys can drop, drop it in your little links. But yeah, I, I, my book is just something that was honestly born from grief. I lost my best friend and it was the hardest thing I've ever been through.

50:37 I personally struggled most my life with depression as well. And it's something that I think should be spoken from someone who's actually experienced it. And a lot of the people who are talking about the subject are older researchers like Jonathan Height or Scott Galloway and, and other people who have not lived it. And so for me, I'm one of the few young people who's actually put out a book about this because I feel like now more than ever, we need to do something about this crisis. I agree with you and it makes it more relatable when you're of that age that your audience of the audience that the book is meant for.

51:20 I'm sorry you had to go through an awful time and all that heartache, but something great was born of it. So kudos to you for that. And we'll definitely put the link everywhere on our website and social media. And it's meant a lot for us to have you on here today. I appreciate it so much and I know the audience will as well. I second that. Thank you so much. It's been wonderful chatting with you well. Thank you too, and I'm excited to hear it come out and thank you for the work that you do. And I, I wanted to say to you that you know, a lot of people are scared to speak up on such important topics. And so I commend you both for wanting to do that work and to speak up because more of us really need to. Thank you.

52:06 Thank you so much. Well, thank you guys. Bye all. Right. Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye.